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Super Saiyan Rage Trunks vs Vegito Blue
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Topic Started: Jan 4 2017, 09:22 PM (2,250 Views)
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+ Solid Snake
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Jan 4 2017, 09:22 PM
Post #1
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滅Are you frightened?
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Trunks can't utilize Genki to empower him. Who wins?
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OmegaSaiyan2
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Jan 4 2017, 09:37 PM
Post #2
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¿?
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Without the Genki-sword, Trunks stands no chance.
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+ Son-Goku
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Jan 4 2017, 09:55 PM
Post #3
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孫悟空
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The fight isn't even close, Vegito obliterates.
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Jan 4 2017, 10:48 PM
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Trunks is inferior to Goku and Vegeta prior to the mega Genki hax sword, Vegetto wasted him.
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EMIYA
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Jan 4 2017, 11:17 PM
Post #5
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Even without the Genki-Sword, Trunks was capable of standing up and hurting Fused Zamasu. He definitely had to remain on the defensive for the fight, an was getting pressured, but as it stands, Trunks was capable of actually fighting against Fused Zamasu. And needless to say Zamasu was capable of pressuing Vegetto.
The way I see it, if Trunks can pressure Zamasu, he's going to do the same to a guy Zamasu pressured. With that said, it's probably going to be something similar to what the fight with Zamasu lookedlike. Trunks is going to be on the defensive, taking the pressure, etc.
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Tinny
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Jan 5 2017, 12:44 AM
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At every single point of comparison I can think of, Trunks has been shown enough to, if not outright Vegetto in a test of strength, then at least tango with him in a decent fight. I have seen little evidence suggesting that Trunks can't win, and absolutely none saying Vegetto would obliterate Trunks.
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+ Solid Snake
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Jan 5 2017, 02:48 AM
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滅Are you frightened?
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Except Trunks says Vegito's ki is impressive, it shouldn't be if he is still stronger.
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EMIYA
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Jan 5 2017, 02:53 AM
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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I don't think it's really a matter of being stronger as it is the simple fact that Trunks is on par with Vegetto, or at least getting to that level It really can't be said any other way, Trunks was dodging and taking hits from Zamasu and hurting him. It really can't be said any other way, Trunks took on an enraged Zamasu and held his own. Instead of just casually whooping Trunks like the little brat he should've been, Zamasu instead treated Trunks like he was his mortal foe who stole his girlfriend and was making out in front of Zamasu.
and Zamasu was easily capable of challenging Vegetto in a fight.
In the end, if Trunks can challenge Zamasu to some degree, he's going to do the same to Vegetto.
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Jan 5 2017, 02:56 AM
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魔王子
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'Member when Vegetto was a big deal?
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Tinny
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Jan 5 2017, 02:57 AM
Post #10
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- Solid Snake
- Jan 5 2017, 02:48 AM
Except Trunks says Vegito's ki is impressive, it shouldn't be if he is still stronger. If we're gonna ignore all evidence and feats in the entire fight because of one statement in a saga where they get constantly disputed by actual feats (such as Gowaso saying Zamasu isn't regenerating, and then later we see just that), then there's nothing to discuss. The idea of Vegetto being able to one shot Trunks is the same as saying that buu saga Goku could totally defeat Buuhan on his own in the manga based off an offhand lack of comment by Toriyama and a manga panel. There are a few things around the fight that might suggest otherwise, but when it actually comes time to show evidence, there is nothing that isn't overturned in that same fight.
I'll put my response in the other thread here as well since it seems relevant.
Spoiler: click to toggle - Solid Snake
- Jan 4 2017, 10:01 PM
- Tinny
- Jan 4 2017, 09:38 PM
I feel that's stretching since that was a normal punch powered with ki, without even a name or... anything to it, it stands out no more than the time Vegeta used ki to punch Goku in the anime, while the other was literally the final kamehameha. In addition Trunks got up right away to defend against Zamasu, while Vegetto didn't and yes you could claim that Vegetto did that for the strategy, but we have no way of knowing for sure, and I have to point this out once again.  Only one of them thought it necessary to dodge the shockwaves.  And this is Trunks against a stronger Zamasu. The fact that he's straight up alive let alone able to defend himself tells me he's more durable. The fact that Zamasu barely even seems to have been hit by FKHH while he is clearly cut by Trunks's slashes. Not only has Vegetto not actually had to defend himself from any of Stronger Zamasu's strikes, but we saw him having to outright dodge most of the weaker Zamasu's strikes. Like literal shockwaves. As if he was Chi-Chi facing Goku in the tournament. Just about every clear frame of reference we have between Vegetto and Trunks goes down in Trunks's favour. And if we're just gonna go with the ki sword and the arm having allot more amp, it seems clearly to me that these techniques (the ki sword and... whatever Zamasu's mutant arm is) absolutely dwarf everything else in the entire franchise if a Trunks weaker than Goku can just use a technique and be able to tango with a foe that brushed off Blue Vegetto's Final Kamehameha. At absolute minimum, Trunks is quickly closing in on Vegetto, like within less than kaioken x2 or to be generous x 3 range.
It was a punch but Vegito still matched it's strength, even though the shockwave was dodged. We do have evidence, Vegito said he could do the ki sword technique too, something Merged Zamasu didn't know and was caught off guard by, that much is clear, at least to me. It looks like Trunks was straight out punched, not hit by the shockwave to me. Trunks is fighting on the defensive really against a slower but stronger Zamasu, the same one Vegito Blue was beating on and about to finish with some ki enhanced punch. Zamasu simply healed from the Semi-immortality he had. I provided evidence for that. Let's get this clear, I'm saying Vegito Blue is stronger then initial and (w/LoJ), but it isn't a gigantic gap, that's obvious, but this full power LoJ Zamasu just flipped the edge. This small gap is still favorable to both fighters: Vegito's skills and speed versus Zamasu's semi-immortality and strength. So yes, he dodged but this doesn't cement him as weak by no means. Trunks was deflecting strikes from Zamasu's weaker arm and was still weakened by Vegito Blue, and this is more so due to his progress in swordsmanship and his do or die instinct he has unlike Present day Saiyans like his father and Goku.
Matched? How is getting beaten in that fist clash and floored to the ground matching it? Temporarily maybe but that's it. As for the quote, that's evidence that he planned to stab Zamasu while on the ground, suprising him. This is not proof that Vegetto totally tanked it one hundred percent and could have easily just done a back flip onto his feat and used shot a ki blast back with no issue. Either Vegetto could have tanked the blow and decided to pretend he got hurt to stab Zamasu, or Vegetto got hurt by the blow and immediately formed a counter strategy, I see no particular evidence for one over the other, this combined with the others leaves me... Unconvinced of Vegetto being so much stronger, or even just a little stronger than Zamasu. Yes, he got straight out punched in the face first by the stronger (if slower) Zamasu (technically he blocked, but it should say something that I had to go frame by frame to determine that, it clearly didn't help). That's my point, Vegetto had to dodge the shockwaves, any time he tried to match with the arm he lost, and lost hard, and not just against the arm, are we forgetting about the eye blast Zamasu does, because he also flew back quite a ways in a way unlike when he got punched.  This is yet more evidence that Goku didn't plan to get punch, then play possum for a bit before the ki blade considering his default reaction is to immediately regain his footing. And yet another thing, if this arm is so much stronger how is Vegetto able to restrain the damn thing? He's clearly not got it folded against his back or anything since Zamasu can just look him in the eye, the guy is just on his non mutated side. When Vegetto gained the advantage, it wasn't by overpowering him in a beam struggle, or taking his punch to the face and then one inch punching him, it is through indirect fighting, at no point was Vegetto able to outright over power Zamasu, and you might say that kicking him from behind is not a sneak attack, but neither is it a direct challange of Zamasu's power. Trunks meanwhile, even if he gets punched is able to get back up rather quickly. And really don't understand how Vegetto is stronger and yet weaker at the same time. Since apparently Vegetto's advantage in power is skill letting him keep the advantage even though he has a power advantage that he showcases via skillfull fighting and not overpowering Zamasu and yet is somehow evidence that Vegetto is stronger. At what point during this entire fight has Vegetto shown himself to be stronger? How is Zamasu shown to be weaker when his shockwaves need to be dodged, his eye blasts make Vegetto almost s*** himself, he wins in contests of power, not just with the brute strength of an arm that can be restrained by Vegetto, he tanks a final kamehameha in his stronger form, takes getting punched hard enough in the face that it's smoking and his only reaction is this.  Later he says in an angry voice to "disappear mortals" before getting blocked by Trunks. So even if that punch was a super powerful one, it ultimately at best only garners the same result as Trunks does by slashing at Zamasu with his ki blade. At best, Trunks is equal, or near equal. Because Zamasu was slower. And once again, we've seen what that looks like, we know Zamasu reacts, and it wasn't literally just flying up with not so much as a speck of dirt on him saying he's a god. And no evidence was shown that Zamasu had to regenerate from the FKHH, what evidence are you referring to then? The steamy and burned flesh? First of all Goku's Kamehameha did more than that, and even ignoring that, It's still just a punch with no more gravitas than Vegeta's ki punch against Goku in the anime? Do you think Vegeta would have one shot Goku right there then? And that's simply not true. He's weaker than the initial purple armed Zamasu, every single contest of power showcases this until literally the final bout, and you have to keep in mind that stronger Zamasu at no point even punched Vegetto, ignoring Zamasu's arm is like ignoring Trunks's sword, Buu's body, and Hit's Time skip. They each are attributes of the fighters, you don't simply take them away to say the other guy is the stronger fighter, because at that point you're not fighting that person, you're fighting a straw dummy of them and declaring you the winner. It's literally the Strawman boxing metaphor. In what way was it shown that Zamasu was weakened? Because he got hurt by Trunks? The entire argument is if Trunks is stronger than Vegetto so it can't be that. Because Vegetto punched Zamasu really hard with a punch that supposedly despite having no build up, no name, no anything attached to it is supposed to be so much better than a FKHH hitting Zamasu. And if we're gonna singularly use the damage on Zamasu's face to say that, then I have to point out ssjgssj Goku did worse to Zamasu's face. And mind you that Goku was weak enough that without kaioken Zamasu could literally just grab Goku's leg and crush it. And also took a punch in the face from his stronger arm, slashed at his torso doing more damage than the final kamehameha, did (which if you'll recall, was literally nothing aside from blowing smoke all over the place, it may as well have been Chiaotzu blowing himself up against Nappa for all the good it did and all the damage it has done). Regeneration does not let you tank attacks, Zamasu has shown this plenty of times. Like every hit the characters get in on him. All in all, I find the idea of, not only Trunks being weaker than Vegetto, but also the idea of Trunks not being anywhere near Vegetto being entertained in the slightest to be completely ludicrous and ungrounded in any evidence within the show. I don't think I'd mind this so much if people could at least accept that they're possibly close to each other, than the others that thing Vegetto would one shot Trunks with his pinky because... Well because it's Vegetto and Vegetto is supposed to be stronger than anyone else. And that really is my biggest issue, people don't just think Vegetto is stronger than Trunks, they think he's overwhelmingly stronger than Trunks to the point where and I quote here. - Quote:
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Trunks is inferior to Goku and Vegeta prior to the mega Genki hax sword, Vegetto wasted him.
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The fight isn't even close, Vegito obliterates.
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Without the Genki-sword, Trunks stands no chance.
This is easily my biggest problem, the... honestly nothing short of this... This "Fiction" (I know I know), that Vegetto is so overwhelmingly powerful. I'm fine with listening to the idea that Vegetto is a bit stronger than Trunks, maybe even just plain strong enough to win most of the time, but when it is always these kinds of answers, it makes me wonder if I'm the only one who watches this show. I am willing to entertain that Vegetto is stronger, but I am not willing to entertain that Trunks is so weaksauce compared to Vegetto when everything he's shown has been about on level with, if not outright better than Vegetto's showings. At this point I may as well say Oolong is stronger than Zeno for all that watching and analyzing and rewatching and noticing new points and basically any research I do into the episode matters at that point.
Edited by Tinny, Jan 5 2017, 03:05 AM.
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+ Solid Snake
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Jan 5 2017, 06:11 AM
Post #11
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滅Are you frightened?
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- Tinny
- Jan 5 2017, 02:57 AM
- Solid Snake
- Jan 5 2017, 02:48 AM
Except Trunks says Vegito's ki is impressive, it shouldn't be if he is still stronger.
If we're gonna ignore all evidence and feats in the entire fight because of one statement in a saga where they get constantly disputed by actual feats (such as Gowaso saying Zamasu isn't regenerating, and then later we see just that), then there's nothing to discuss. The idea of Vegetto being able to one shot Trunks is the same as saying that buu saga Goku could totally defeat Buuhan on his own in the manga based off an offhand lack of comment by Toriyama and a manga panel. There are a few things around the fight that might suggest otherwise, but when it actually comes time to show evidence, there is nothing that isn't overturned in that same fight. I'll put my response in the other thread here as well since it seems relevant. Spoiler: click to toggle - Solid Snake
- Jan 4 2017, 10:01 PM
- Tinny
- Jan 4 2017, 09:38 PM
I feel that's stretching since that was a normal punch powered with ki, without even a name or... anything to it, it stands out no more than the time Vegeta used ki to punch Goku in the anime, while the other was literally the final kamehameha. In addition Trunks got up right away to defend against Zamasu, while Vegetto didn't and yes you could claim that Vegetto did that for the strategy, but we have no way of knowing for sure, and I have to point this out once again.  Only one of them thought it necessary to dodge the shockwaves.  And this is Trunks against a stronger Zamasu. The fact that he's straight up alive let alone able to defend himself tells me he's more durable. The fact that Zamasu barely even seems to have been hit by FKHH while he is clearly cut by Trunks's slashes. Not only has Vegetto not actually had to defend himself from any of Stronger Zamasu's strikes, but we saw him having to outright dodge most of the weaker Zamasu's strikes. Like literal shockwaves. As if he was Chi-Chi facing Goku in the tournament. Just about every clear frame of reference we have between Vegetto and Trunks goes down in Trunks's favour. And if we're just gonna go with the ki sword and the arm having allot more amp, it seems clearly to me that these techniques (the ki sword and... whatever Zamasu's mutant arm is) absolutely dwarf everything else in the entire franchise if a Trunks weaker than Goku can just use a technique and be able to tango with a foe that brushed off Blue Vegetto's Final Kamehameha. At absolute minimum, Trunks is quickly closing in on Vegetto, like within less than kaioken x2 or to be generous x 3 range.
It was a punch but Vegito still matched it's strength, even though the shockwave was dodged. We do have evidence, Vegito said he could do the ki sword technique too, something Merged Zamasu didn't know and was caught off guard by, that much is clear, at least to me. It looks like Trunks was straight out punched, not hit by the shockwave to me. Trunks is fighting on the defensive really against a slower but stronger Zamasu, the same one Vegito Blue was beating on and about to finish with some ki enhanced punch. Zamasu simply healed from the Semi-immortality he had. I provided evidence for that. Let's get this clear, I'm saying Vegito Blue is stronger then initial and (w/LoJ), but it isn't a gigantic gap, that's obvious, but this full power LoJ Zamasu just flipped the edge. This small gap is still favorable to both fighters: Vegito's skills and speed versus Zamasu's semi-immortality and strength. So yes, he dodged but this doesn't cement him as weak by no means. Trunks was deflecting strikes from Zamasu's weaker arm and was still weakened by Vegito Blue, and this is more so due to his progress in swordsmanship and his do or die instinct he has unlike Present day Saiyans like his father and Goku.
Matched? How is getting beaten in that fist clash and floored to the ground matching it? Temporarily maybe but that's it. As for the quote, that's evidence that he planned to stab Zamasu while on the ground, suprising him. This is not proof that Vegetto totally tanked it one hundred percent and could have easily just done a back flip onto his feat and used shot a ki blast back with no issue. Either Vegetto could have tanked the blow and decided to pretend he got hurt to stab Zamasu, or Vegetto got hurt by the blow and immediately formed a counter strategy, I see no particular evidence for one over the other, this combined with the others leaves me... Unconvinced of Vegetto being so much stronger, or even just a little stronger than Zamasu. Yes, he got straight out punched in the face first by the stronger (if slower) Zamasu (technically he blocked, but it should say something that I had to go frame by frame to determine that, it clearly didn't help). That's my point, Vegetto had to dodge the shockwaves, any time he tried to match with the arm he lost, and lost hard, and not just against the arm, are we forgetting about the eye blast Zamasu does, because he also flew back quite a ways in a way unlike when he got punched.  This is yet more evidence that Goku didn't plan to get punch, then play possum for a bit before the ki blade considering his default reaction is to immediately regain his footing. And yet another thing, if this arm is so much stronger how is Vegetto able to restrain the damn thing? He's clearly not got it folded against his back or anything since Zamasu can just look him in the eye, the guy is just on his non mutated side. When Vegetto gained the advantage, it wasn't by overpowering him in a beam struggle, or taking his punch to the face and then one inch punching him, it is through indirect fighting, at no point was Vegetto able to outright over power Zamasu, and you might say that kicking him from behind is not a sneak attack, but neither is it a direct challange of Zamasu's power. Trunks meanwhile, even if he gets punched is able to get back up rather quickly. And really don't understand how Vegetto is stronger and yet weaker at the same time. Since apparently Vegetto's advantage in power is skill letting him keep the advantage even though he has a power advantage that he showcases via skillfull fighting and not overpowering Zamasu and yet is somehow evidence that Vegetto is stronger. At what point during this entire fight has Vegetto shown himself to be stronger? How is Zamasu shown to be weaker when his shockwaves need to be dodged, his eye blasts make Vegetto almost s*** himself, he wins in contests of power, not just with the brute strength of an arm that can be restrained by Vegetto, he tanks a final kamehameha in his stronger form, takes getting punched hard enough in the face that it's smoking and his only reaction is this.  Later he says in an angry voice to "disappear mortals" before getting blocked by Trunks. So even if that punch was a super powerful one, it ultimately at best only garners the same result as Trunks does by slashing at Zamasu with his ki blade. At best, Trunks is equal, or near equal. Because Zamasu was slower. And once again, we've seen what that looks like, we know Zamasu reacts, and it wasn't literally just flying up with not so much as a speck of dirt on him saying he's a god. And no evidence was shown that Zamasu had to regenerate from the FKHH, what evidence are you referring to then? The steamy and burned flesh? First of all Goku's Kamehameha did more than that, and even ignoring that, It's still just a punch with no more gravitas than Vegeta's ki punch against Goku in the anime? Do you think Vegeta would have one shot Goku right there then? And that's simply not true. He's weaker than the initial purple armed Zamasu, every single contest of power showcases this until literally the final bout, and you have to keep in mind that stronger Zamasu at no point even punched Vegetto, ignoring Zamasu's arm is like ignoring Trunks's sword, Buu's body, and Hit's Time skip. They each are attributes of the fighters, you don't simply take them away to say the other guy is the stronger fighter, because at that point you're not fighting that person, you're fighting a straw dummy of them and declaring you the winner. It's literally the Strawman boxing metaphor. In what way was it shown that Zamasu was weakened? Because he got hurt by Trunks? The entire argument is if Trunks is stronger than Vegetto so it can't be that. Because Vegetto punched Zamasu really hard with a punch that supposedly despite having no build up, no name, no anything attached to it is supposed to be so much better than a FKHH hitting Zamasu. And if we're gonna singularly use the damage on Zamasu's face to say that, then I have to point out ssjgssj Goku did worse to Zamasu's face. And mind you that Goku was weak enough that without kaioken Zamasu could literally just grab Goku's leg and crush it. And also took a punch in the face from his stronger arm, slashed at his torso doing more damage than the final kamehameha, did (which if you'll recall, was literally nothing aside from blowing smoke all over the place, it may as well have been Chiaotzu blowing himself up against Nappa for all the good it did and all the damage it has done). Regeneration does not let you tank attacks, Zamasu has shown this plenty of times. Like every hit the characters get in on him. All in all, I find the idea of, not only Trunks being weaker than Vegetto, but also the idea of Trunks not being anywhere near Vegetto being entertained in the slightest to be completely ludicrous and ungrounded in any evidence within the show. I don't think I'd mind this so much if people could at least accept that they're possibly close to each other, than the others that thing Vegetto would one shot Trunks with his pinky because... Well because it's Vegetto and Vegetto is supposed to be stronger than anyone else. And that really is my biggest issue, people don't just think Vegetto is stronger than Trunks, they think he's overwhelmingly stronger than Trunks to the point where and I quote here. - Quote:
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Trunks is inferior to Goku and Vegeta prior to the mega Genki hax sword, Vegetto wasted him.
- Quote:
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The fight isn't even close, Vegito obliterates.
- Quote:
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Without the Genki-sword, Trunks stands no chance.
This is easily my biggest problem, the... honestly nothing short of this... This "Fiction" (I know I know), that Vegetto is so overwhelmingly powerful. I'm fine with listening to the idea that Vegetto is a bit stronger than Trunks, maybe even just plain strong enough to win most of the time, but when it is always these kinds of answers, it makes me wonder if I'm the only one who watches this show. I am willing to entertain that Vegetto is stronger, but I am not willing to entertain that Trunks is so weaksauce compared to Vegetto when everything he's shown has been about on level with, if not outright better than Vegetto's showings. At this point I may as well say Oolong is stronger than Zeno for all that watching and analyzing and rewatching and noticing new points and basically any research I do into the episode matters at that point. Trunks statement is including his ability at their peak as well as Zamasu's (at least at that moment). Gowasu implied that they needed a stronger force to further injure Zamasu, which was Vegito's play. He overwhelms Zamasu mainly and occasionally gets pummeled. Trunks didn't really do anything other then the slash. His ki blast barrage didn't even accomplish nothing and he blocked the God Fierce Slice with the less strong arm.
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Hip3r
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Jan 5 2017, 07:39 AM
Post #12
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Vegito Blue wins. Trunks doesn't really have any chance especially if he doesn't even have that spirit bomb power up/sword. He is lacking in power and techniques domain.
Edited by Hip3r, Jan 5 2017, 07:40 AM.
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Vegerot1990
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Jan 5 2017, 10:04 AM
Post #13
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Vegito Blue wins. He surprise Trunks with his long Ki Blade and stabs him. Trunks only did well against bulked Merged Zamasu because he was so slow. Remember how Perfect Cell beat Super Saiyan Grade 3 Trunks despite weaker.
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+ Solid Snake
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Jan 5 2017, 08:28 PM
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滅Are you frightened?
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- Jan 5 2017, 10:04 AM
Vegito Blue wins. He surprise Trunks with his long Ki Blade and stabs him. Trunks only did well against bulked Merged Zamasu because he was so slow. Remember how Perfect Cell beat Super Saiyan Grade 3 Trunks despite weaker. And even then Trunks was on defense despite him having speed on his side.
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+ Ssj3vegito96
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Jan 5 2017, 09:16 PM
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I really think zamasu just likes tormenting trunks so he held back against him. "Where will you go for help next, trunks?" Or something like that is what he told him right? So obviously he plans for dealing with him later too
And like others mentioned, trunks fought the bulked up zamasu who was slower
And who knows maybe trunks's new form is the reason he keeps getting stronger?
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